Curse

4thVariety · Jul 12, 2009, 06:36 PM // 18:36

It's never too late to ask someone from your alliance to fill up your group with three of his heroes and just leave at the start of your endeavor. 1+6 Heroes is stronger than 1 + 3 Heroes + 4 Hench, so shrug off Arenanet ignoring customer wishes and go for it.

UnChosen · Jul 12, 2009, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Because when you play with other people you don't see other stuff blowing even faster?

Last time I checked you had to move for heroes move - so you can as well pretend to be playing in a party of 8 people.

Again, when you are with heroes/henchies, you play your build and when you are with other people you play the other people build as well?

When I play earh shaker warrior with H/H, I go in micro PS on myself, call targets and press my skills to kill mobs.

When I play earh shaker warrior with 7 other people, I go, ask for PS on me if monk is slow, call targets and press my skills to kill mobs.

You do it differently?

Wow I have to MOVE to get the heroes to move! Its too hard, help me! [/sarcasm] I know! I can move in aggro range of monsters, then turn around to watch TV for half a minute and turn back to see all the monsters dead. Actually I could just flag the H/H forward a bit and then I don't even have to get in range!

Having to micro a PS once in a while doesn't mean that you are doing much more than soloing, the AI still does 99% of 7 people's work all by themselves.

But that wasn't what my last post was about, in fact I don't really care if ANet implement 7 heroes or not, because I could clearly see that there's not enough people for a lot of areas.

The thing that irks me are people whining about PvE skills and SF making the game too easy, while complaining about not having 7 heroes. Going out with perma and PvE skills with 7 players still takes more work/time/coordination than slapping on 7 heroes X-way and having them do all the work. So if they are going to implement 7 heroes those skills better be left alone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sword Hammer Axe

Damn straight. I still wouldn't mind 7 heroes. Wouldn't make much difference really. Besides if people think it's too easy they can always just take henchies. No one's forcing you to make it easier on yourself. Hell I even went out in a party of 6 instead of 8 while vq'ing that grawl area to the east of Droknar's Forge because it's too easy a place with 8-man team to me ^^

I hope you are not one of those people complaining about SF everyday, because the whole "don't like it, don't use it" argument is used in exactly the same way.

But as expected no one flamed you for using that argument here while if you do the same thing in the SF threads you will be called out instantly.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jul 12, 2009, 11:20 PM // 23:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

I hope you are not one of those people complaining about SF everyday, because the whole "don't like it, don't use it" argument is used in exactly the same way.

But as expected no one flamed you for using that argument here while if you do the same thing in the SF threads you will be called out instantly.

I actually think my point spoke FOR SF didn't it? Or were you being sarcastic?

Well anyways I don't complain about SF. I rarely play my sin though but sometimes I do enjoy going Perma SF on it just for gags XD People can flame me as much as they want really. I stand by my beliefs until someone actually CONVINCES me that I'm wrong XD

Robbeh The Mad · Jul 12, 2009, 11:33 PM // 23:33

I dont understand their reasoning for not allowing 7 hero teams as being over powered
If that's true they shouldnt allow 2 players + 6 heros teams to party together it's the same effect never mind that a halfway decent human player would be far superior to any hero

Improvavel · Jul 12, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Wow I have to MOVE to get the heroes to move! Its too hard, help me! [/sarcasm] I know! I can move in aggro range of monsters, then turn around to watch TV for half a minute and turn back to see all the monsters dead. Actually I could just flag the H/H forward a bit and then I don't even have to get in range!

Because you can't do that with people? The difference is they charge you.

Or because a bad player can't finish a hard area just by leeching or simply because the other players carry his death weight?

Quote:

Having to micro a PS once in a while doesn't mean that you are doing much more than soloing, the AI still does 99% of 7 people's work all by themselves.

And what does the work of those 7 people differs from my point of view?

Actually I do even less work. I don't flag them, I don't micro PS.

Quote:

The thing that irks me are people whining about PvE skills and SF making the game too easy, while complaining about not having 7 heroes. Going out with perma and PvE skills with 7 players still takes more work/time/coordination than slapping on 7 heroes X-way and having them do all the work. So if they are going to implement 7 heroes those skills better be left alone.

So basically you are saying you need to waste time.

If you waste time forming a party it is ok.

Of course perma+pve skills just can't compare to the speed of heroes - heroes are a lot slower.

Doing DoA heroway nm takes 3.5-4.5 hours for a full run without consumables opposed to under 1 hour SF+Cyway or FoCway now in HM.

warcrap · Jul 13, 2009, 12:22 AM // 00:22

7 heroes would mean the guild wars player base being happy and if that would ever happen all the Anet employees would commit suicide!

Improvavel · Jul 13, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trub

^ Took the words right out of my mouth.
The real question should be....
What has happened to the players?
It is sad when someone can place a skill template on a hero, and by golly..that hero can run that bar better than a human (PUG) player???
Abbasi the hench in NF can solo 2 mandrigors, before the 'tank' that joined your group can get a hit in??
*sigh*
I'm going back to my guild hall.
gg

Well AI is better than humans at interrupting (although might not interrupt the right stuff) - no lag, no reflexes, knows what every enemy is casting.

Ai is better than humans at microing death nova on minions.

AI is better than humans at repetitive tasks like orders, since the players probably will fall asleep or make casting mistakes due to boredom.

Humans can be better at melee, but a large portion of players suck at playing melee, especially because they are afraid to die and so invest loads on defense and gimp their damage/utility like knocks. A good melee player will make a huge difference in any party.

Humans can be better at energy management, but most think that energy management is using radiants and attunements.

Humans can make better use of indirect energy management, like not removing blindness from a caster or parasitic bond from that warrior.

Humans can be better at protting due to better understanding of what is happening - except most don't or use pure healing builds since red bar down - cast skill is easier to understand.

Heroes focus on the same target - sometimes that is good, sometimes is bad. Human players can take advantage of the ability to focus or attack multiple targets. Of course they need to understand the game.

Basically, humans can be better than heroes if they can make decisions and choices. To do that they need to understand the game. The game, while not rocket science, isn't as simple as most games out there either.

A player that knows the game, can and will give their heroes builds that reflect that and his game style.

A player that knows the game that joins a pug needs to fight the egos of people that don't understand the game, and even if those players will listen to him, chances are they won't be able to use their new build very well.

angelsarc · Jul 13, 2009, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Well AI is better than humans at interrupting (although might not interrupt the right stuff) - no lag, no reflexes, knows what every enemy is casting.

Ai is better than humans at microing death nova on minions.

AI is better than humans at repetitive tasks like orders, since the players probably will fall asleep or make casting mistakes due to boredom.

Humans can be better at melee, but a large portion of players suck at playing melee, especially because they are afraid to die and so invest loads on defense and gimp their damage/utility like knocks. A good melee player will make a huge difference in any party.

Humans can be better at energy management, but most think that energy management is using radiants and attunements.

Humans can make better use of indirect energy management, like not removing blindness from a caster or parasitic bond from that warrior.

Humans can be better at protting due to better understanding of what is happening - except most don't or use pure healing builds since red bar down - cast skill is easier to understand.

Heroes focus on the same target - sometimes that is good, sometimes is bad. Human players can take advantage of the ability to focus or attack multiple targets. Of course they need to understand the game.

Basically, humans can be better than heroes if they can make decisions and choices. To do that they need to understand the game. The game, while not rocket science, isn't as simple as most games out there either.

A player that knows the game, can and will give their heroes builds that reflect that and his game style.

A player that knows the game that joins a pug needs to fight the egos of people that don't understand the game, and even if those players will listen to him, chances are they won't be able to use their new build very well.

In other words, most players are dumber than Heroes and bad at Guild Wars.

UnChosen · Jul 13, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Because you can't do that with people? The difference is they charge you.

Or because a bad player can't finish a hard area just by leeching or simply because the other players carry his death weight?

And what does the work of those 7 people differs from my point of view?

Actually I do even less work. I don't flag them, I don't micro PS.

So basically you are saying you need to waste time.

If you waste time forming a party it is ok.

Of course perma+pve skills just can't compare to the speed of heroes - heroes are a lot slower.

Doing DoA heroway nm takes 3.5-4.5 hours for a full run without consumables opposed to under 1 hour SF+Cyway or FoCway now in HM.

Thanks for taking my post out of context again. Ill make it simple this time...This is what I support: soloers get 7 heroes, puggers gets their PvE skills + SF left alone. Soloers gets perfect coordination and obedient AI as a benefit, puggers keep their faster kill time with a good group but still group wipes for a crappy group. No hypocritical nerf everything pug use to make it even harder but buff heroes so everyone play with AI BS.

bhavv · Jul 13, 2009, 03:46 AM // 03:46

Arguing this topic has become so pointless now. Anet somehow got lucky with creating a great gaming experience with GW, yet they have completely messed up with keeping their players satisfied.

This is one major drawback to not having fees. They already have your money, and do not care about what the customer wants, instead they keep on creating a mish mash of random and totally uncalled for updates, 75% of which are beyond a complete joke, 15% of which are just plain balances, and occasionally 10% of are good.

More often then not, they keep on failing GW with these updates.

A couple of years ago, the majority of the GW community asked for 7 heroes. The reasons for this were completely misunderstood by Anet, and by the pug community on the whole.

Lets make one thing absolutely clear:

NO ONE, NOT ONE PERSON WANTS 7 HEROES TO MAKE THE GAME EASIER.

If you dont agree with wanting 7 heroes, then read that out aloud to yourself as many times as it takes to understand it.

People who enjoy the element of party customisation, controll, and specification of individual player skills and strategies want 7 heroes. This is quite a lot of players because being able to choose your own strategy and gaming method is a very common and enjoyable element of gameplay.

Now, when this topic was initially created, both Anet and the idiot pug community misread it as:

WE WANT THE GAME TO BE MADE EASIER WITH AN INSTANT KILL MODE.

This stupid misinterpretation is what has ultimately led to GW downfall. Anet thought we wanted an easier game, so they delivered. When the PVE community asked for 7 heroes, instead Anet gave us powerful god mode PVE only skills and consumables. These changes now made HM a walk in the park for even the least skillful players in the game, and was the most ridiculous change to the terrible GW power creep.

Anet instead should have simply allowed 7 heroes, never introduced PVE only skills and consumables, and increased party rewards when playing in full human groups (if in a full human team, 2x gold coins, and gold and green weapon drop rates, or halve the drop rate if playing solo or with AI).

This would have motivated players who enjoy grouping to party together, and the person who enjoys solo play could still do so but with fewer rewards.

This would have been the ideal first case solution as opposed to all the game ruining PVE only stuff we got instead.

Anet simply failed at understanding PVE or the communities desires. Instead they slowly began allowing the game to deteriorate with stupid gameplay decisions, and a refusal to provide what the community actually wanted to enjoy the game even more.

Lishy · Jul 13, 2009, 03:59 AM // 03:59

How the hell does having 7 heroes make things more overpowered than +100 armor and skills like PI? I don't understand that argument. In fact, to be blunt, I find it incredibly retarded that people say it makes the game too easy.

FORCING PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH OTHER PLAYERS DOES NOT MAKE THE GAME "HARDER" OR MORE "CHALLENGING". IT ONLY LIMITS WHAT YOU CAN DO AND FORCES THE PLAYERS TO PLAY WITH PEOPLE THEY CHOOSE NOT TO PLAY WITH USING HEROES

Get it through your damn heads. Heroes don't have any better advantages than players.

Oh wait "NOOOOO HEROES ARE BETTER INTERRUPTERS"
Guild wars is about spkill. With the AI interrupt delay nerf that happened awhile back, humans are superior. But wait "NOOOO BECAUSE HEROES HAVE GODLY AI AND CAN PAY ATTENTION TO THE WHOLE BATTER"
This game is about skill. Learn to know what it casting a spell even without targeting. You complain the game is too easy. Then why not play the role of an interrupter and learn to recognize the battle animations of 6 enemy casters at once?

"NOOOOO HEROES ARE BETTER BOMBERS"
This part is also about skill. A good player can easily see which minions are dying to cast Death Nova on. And hero MMs don't use the human MM skills properly like Order of Undeath for example.

"HEROES ARE BETTER HEALERS AND KILLED MONKING!!!1!1!!!!11!11111!!!ELEVEN!!!"
N/rt healers are inferior. The reason they're even used is for the e-management because AI is so bad they spam heals to the point of no energy. I'd take a human ritualist any day who KNOW how to handle energy and heals. Go go Signet of Spirits!

My point? Humans are superior. Problem? Most are just stubborn dumbass n00bs. And most people prefer guild wars as a 1 player rpg with multiplayer support.

/Kain's official label of a flame post

UnChosen · Jul 13, 2009, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Anet instead should have simply allowed 7 heroes, never introduced PVE only skills and consumables, and increased party rewards when playing in full human groups (if in a full human team, 2x gold coins, and gold and green weapon drop rates, or halve the drop rate if playing solo or with AI).

This would have motivated players who enjoy grouping to party together, and the person who enjoys solo play could still do so but with fewer rewards.

This would have been the ideal first case solution as opposed to all the game ruining PVE only stuff we got instead.

Anet simply failed at understanding PVE or the communities desires. Instead they slowly began allowing the game to deteriorate with stupid gameplay decisions, and a refusal to provide what the community actually wanted to enjoy the game even more.

Since your post was right after mine, I just want to clarfity that I NEVER SAID I DON'T SUPPORT 7 HEROES!

The only reason I brought the whole SF/PvE skill debate into this thread is because those are the only incentives left to pugging. Any one who had tried to do those eotn dungeon Z quest know just how difficult it is for pugs even with all those supposedly "god mode" skills. Its so bad that I see quite a few people every time a dungeon Z quest comes along spamming for 20 min straight for a 600 run for 15k+. Yeah even with perma and CoP some people would still rather pay 15k for a run, which say a thing or two about how much those "insta-win" skill helped...not much IMO, the end game speed clears are exceptions and does not accurately represent the rest of the game.

Now if you nerf those skills and add in 7 heroes at the same time, the effect would be obvious. People would use heroes for literally everything. The problem is that a lot of areas in the game after factions has these artificial "stat pumping" difficulty increases that make it extremely difficult for average players without the use of some gimmick builds. Now the ideal solution would be to have a complete redesign areas to be more "skill based", add in gold incentives for grouping like you suggested, and then removed all gimmicks and consumables from the game.

But its pretty obvious ANET doesn't have the time nor the resource to literally redesign the game. Which is why I prefer the the option of pugs with "easy mode" skills + 7 heroes. At least this way the majority of players can actually get through the game, and give the most choices instead of being stuck with using AI. End game players would probably be pissed because of farming abuses but the areas can always be adjusted instead.

Daesu · Jul 13, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Any one who had tried to do those eotn dungeon Z quest know just how difficult it is for pugs even with all those supposedly "god mode" skills.

Pugs are random and being random, they can range from the very good to the very bad. Furthermore Pugs are not the only example of a human team, you can also form a team with guildies and/or friends. If you have the bad luck to meet bad pugs, that does not imply that the "god mode" skills are not good enough, that just means the players are bad. My guildies use those "god mode" skills very well in any of the eotn dungeon z quests by the way.

Improvavel · Jul 13, 2009, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Thanks for taking my post out of context again. Ill make it simple this time...This is what I support: soloers get 7 heroes, puggers gets their PvE skills + SF left alone. Soloers gets perfect coordination and obedient AI as a benefit, puggers keep their faster kill time with a good group but still group wipes for a crappy group. No hypocritical nerf everything pug use to make it even harder but buff heroes so everyone play with AI BS.

While some people want to nerf things to make it harder, I would like stuff like Shadow Form and Obsidian flesh went, so Anet couldn't hide behind it to say that stuff like "DoA HM is possible to do".

Hard Mode is a stupid way to increase difficulty.

PvE only skills, consumables, old ursan, Shadow form and Obsidian flesh, are stupid ways to fix it.

Bad design and more bad design to solve the initial bad design. I want both bad designs to go. I know some, that like to look lewt, just want the bad design fix to go.

Again, if the choice was "you can either have 7 heroes or have shadow form nerfed" I would vote get the 7 heroes without thinking twice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelsarc

In other words, most players are dumber than Heroes and bad at Guild Wars.

GW is a game. Most people play games for fun. For some fun is competition or mastering the game. For other is just messing about.

While for a person that is of average intelligence and it is motivated, mastering GW isn't very taxing, most people just can't be bothered when what they want is killing some ugly monsters to relax, and GW is more complex than many other games.

Just for starters, it gives u a plethora of thousand of skills, from which u can only choose 8, and most of them are bad or inferior.

Than you need to do a team with 64 of those skills that have synergy and complement themselves, etc.

Trinity Fire Angel · Jul 13, 2009, 09:25 PM // 21:25

i used to want 7 heros, but i have found a build that allows heros and hench to let me vanqish many parts of cantha... its called Talon, Herta, Eve and Sister Tai or variations on the same profession...

Me (Smite monk), Dunky (smite monk), SS necro, and Discord (with minions) necro. easy.

Sword Hammer Axe · Jul 13, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

i used to want 7 heros, but i have found a build that allows heros and hench to let me vanqish many parts of cantha... its called Talon, Herta, Eve and Sister Tai or variations on the same profession...

Me (Smite monk), Dunky (smite monk), SS necro, and Discord (with minions) necro. easy.

Now here's the reason that build you mentioned doesn't work:

*drum twirl*

Herta isn't a Henchman in Factions XD.

I've also conquered every vq in tyria with H/H, but I'd still like the 7 heroes. I actually don't think it will be much easier either, since I find most of the current henchies to be efficient enough for the tasks, not to mention places like Raisu Palace where the Celestial Skills almost are a must.

dusanyu · Jul 13, 2009, 11:47 PM // 23:47

Solution For the Balance issue

let People use 7 heroes but as soon as they add more than three heroes they have to make two concessions

- they can't use PvE only skills

- both the human player and all 7 heroes use the PvP version of skills .

Improvavel · Jul 13, 2009, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by dusanyu

Solution For the Balance issue

let People use 7 heroes but as soon as they add more than three heroes they have to make two concessions

- they can't use PvE only skills

- both the human player and all 7 heroes use the PvP version of skills .

Got give an advantage to human players - after all they are a handicap, right?

Are people afraid that 7 heroes in the hand of a good player will make solo farming and speed clears completely outdated?

fenix · Jul 13, 2009, 11:57 PM // 23:57

My view on this is the following;

Just find some more friends. Join a NOT shitty guild, stop being a loner, and find some friends. You don't need 7 heroes to play a TEAM game. Play with people, like ANet intended. If you want to play by yourself, go play WoW.

dusanyu · Jul 14, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Got give an advantage to human players - after all they are a handicap, right?

Are people afraid that 7 heroes in the hand of a good player will make solo farming and speed clears completely outdated?

no i feel Human teams are better but Giving the QQers what they one so they will STFU has advantages making them use PvP version of the skills prevents the Use if Gimmicks and One man + hero VSF farms and other lame things that go on in PvE that could be made more lame with all hero teams

and yes there are some things heroes do better like Interrupt (No Ping isues for a hero)

oh and lastly don't put words in my mouth